A very good point about "rationalizing", dcarter. I used to make and receive numerous cassette tapes and, later, cd's and never gave it another thought. Then I ran into a friend who would only put together mix tapes, just as his personal policy. He would not record an entire album but was happy to give away a little taste.
So I agree about the rationalizing. You, even, passed on a few albums to me, which I appreciate very much, and am only now feeling the first twinge of guilt. But not really because, as a matter of fact, I loved those Kinks albums that you introduced to me so much that I went and bought the digitally remastered "Village Green" which included not only the reissue but also a 12 track overseas stereo album and bonus tracks. And I purchased Muswell Hillbillies as well. Looking at both of 'em this very minute. But, I will admit to not always being inspired to such wanton spending after having it in hand.
I don't think burning the odd cd for an immediate friend is going to break the bank. But then, that is me rationalizing. And I continue to rationalize it by insisting that I am doing it on a personal level. One on one, on a selective basis. But I acknowledge it is still rationalizing.
And now I shy away from doing this. I have rationalized and my current policy mirrors my friend's view from all those years ago. Omnibus only.
It comes back to the sheer scale of the thievery. 20 year olds having 11,000 song (I guess the days of counting by "albums" is history) music libraries. What is that? Acquisition of music used to at least indicate a sign of a music lover. Now it just means the sign of an expert thief.
And I'm starting to repeat myself, another sign of being one of the old.
Steal This Music
I agree with Morrison. It was very well said. I am 49 years old and also did everything that he and Tokyo fan did. Did I steal music? Fuck yes. Was it wrong? Of course. Am I bothered by it? Hell no. I spent a decent chunk of time yesterday looking for 2 albums that I wanted but didn't want to spend money on (chillax, apostles. Twas nothing Farrar related). Do I pay for the vast majority of my music? Yes.
I also agree with Lowery. The artists should be paid. He is 100% correct.
The problem with Lowery is that he is basically saying, "Hey cool cat music kids. You are good people. You have values and care about the little guy. You pay extra for fair trade coffee. Listen to my logic and hear my analogies and you will realize that you aren't consistent in your behavior and then you'll stop stealing music". At best, a very small number of people exposed to the Gospel of Dave will have the scales fall from their eyes. Some will take offense at his moralizing and download more, most will see his logic but keep rationalizing their behavior because that's what humans do, we rationalize. I am quite certain that Lowery isn't morally pure (does he violate the posted speed limit, ever, for any reason?). As my racist, redneck asshole Sunday School teacher was fond of saying, "There was only one perfect man and them Jews killed 'im".
David Lowery is an intelligent guy, probably more intelligent than Doug Carter, but if he thinks that he can basically shame musicians' digital troubles away, he is a fool.
Morrison is correct that Lowery is the "get off my lawn!" guy. I have wasted lots of time reading comments in various forums and my unscientific results are that most Lowery-ites are old and most heathens are young.
Acquiring music without paying for it is illegal. No argument. But whether or not it is moral is open for debate, hence the huge debate. Is it bullshit that people aren't getting paid? Yes. Is the toothpaste out of the tube? Yes. Therefore the only solution is to find another way. Morrison is dealing with reality, Lowery is dealing with fantasy.
Fellows, like it or not, how we acquire music has changed.
Oh and David, your logic isn't all gangbusters. If "help the little grower" fair trade coffee buyers were exposed to a system that allowed them to have free (stolen) non-fair trade coffee with almost zero chance of prosecution, many, if not most, of them would rationalize their way to free coffee. Unfortunately for your business, technology has fucked it as you knew it. Use your university music business lecturer knowledge to find another way in spite of Fanning and Parker..
And Grifter, you are my friend. I love you. I also want to thank you for the numerous cds that you have burned for me during my visits. It saved me some dinero.
I also agree with Lowery. The artists should be paid. He is 100% correct.
The problem with Lowery is that he is basically saying, "Hey cool cat music kids. You are good people. You have values and care about the little guy. You pay extra for fair trade coffee. Listen to my logic and hear my analogies and you will realize that you aren't consistent in your behavior and then you'll stop stealing music". At best, a very small number of people exposed to the Gospel of Dave will have the scales fall from their eyes. Some will take offense at his moralizing and download more, most will see his logic but keep rationalizing their behavior because that's what humans do, we rationalize. I am quite certain that Lowery isn't morally pure (does he violate the posted speed limit, ever, for any reason?). As my racist, redneck asshole Sunday School teacher was fond of saying, "There was only one perfect man and them Jews killed 'im".
David Lowery is an intelligent guy, probably more intelligent than Doug Carter, but if he thinks that he can basically shame musicians' digital troubles away, he is a fool.
Morrison is correct that Lowery is the "get off my lawn!" guy. I have wasted lots of time reading comments in various forums and my unscientific results are that most Lowery-ites are old and most heathens are young.
Acquiring music without paying for it is illegal. No argument. But whether or not it is moral is open for debate, hence the huge debate. Is it bullshit that people aren't getting paid? Yes. Is the toothpaste out of the tube? Yes. Therefore the only solution is to find another way. Morrison is dealing with reality, Lowery is dealing with fantasy.
Fellows, like it or not, how we acquire music has changed.
Oh and David, your logic isn't all gangbusters. If "help the little grower" fair trade coffee buyers were exposed to a system that allowed them to have free (stolen) non-fair trade coffee with almost zero chance of prosecution, many, if not most, of them would rationalize their way to free coffee. Unfortunately for your business, technology has fucked it as you knew it. Use your university music business lecturer knowledge to find another way in spite of Fanning and Parker..
And Grifter, you are my friend. I love you. I also want to thank you for the numerous cds that you have burned for me during my visits. It saved me some dinero.
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sturgeongeneral
- Posts: 3054
- Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:23 am
- Location: fallen down a rabbit hole
this thread reminds me somewhat of why i joined this merry gang some 5 1/2 years ago. not so much anymore. what comes to mind is "technological change"-promising quicker but by no means better. also, the chant for more governmental regulation due to stealing intellectual property--that's what lawyers are for; property rights are one of the oldest rights under the law--so, sue the bastards- of course, a paper judgment can sometimes only suffice to wipe one's arse even though it is viable for 21 years.
and, grift, keep playing that music that you learned acoustically by heart; play it for friends, not so friends, and strangers around the campfire at springfest. however, it can be argued that is stealing in its own right. playing another's property without proper payment.
however, before i resonate holier than thou, i remember burning my lp's to my cassetters all those years ago and giving as a "gift". who said witch burnings are passe.
was recently at the cowboy bar in jackson wyoming speaking with the lead guy from crawford & james. a truly dedicated artist tryng to land a loan on a tour bus and relocate to nashville. discussed how wilco stuck it to the man and streamed their music for free and how their efforts paid off. wilco, what type of message are you sending the young folk? anyway, the man from crawford & james just wants to make a living living out his muse. not fame, not a record deal, just a living. a truly cool person and i say go for it; played some mighty fine waylon and johnny covers.
tokyo, thanks for the spark. as i used to sing in my youth during my holy roller days, it only takes a spark to get a fire going.
and, grift, keep playing that music that you learned acoustically by heart; play it for friends, not so friends, and strangers around the campfire at springfest. however, it can be argued that is stealing in its own right. playing another's property without proper payment.
however, before i resonate holier than thou, i remember burning my lp's to my cassetters all those years ago and giving as a "gift". who said witch burnings are passe.
was recently at the cowboy bar in jackson wyoming speaking with the lead guy from crawford & james. a truly dedicated artist tryng to land a loan on a tour bus and relocate to nashville. discussed how wilco stuck it to the man and streamed their music for free and how their efforts paid off. wilco, what type of message are you sending the young folk? anyway, the man from crawford & james just wants to make a living living out his muse. not fame, not a record deal, just a living. a truly cool person and i say go for it; played some mighty fine waylon and johnny covers.
tokyo, thanks for the spark. as i used to sing in my youth during my holy roller days, it only takes a spark to get a fire going.
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Grifterwithafunnylittleha
- Posts: 1674
- Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:40 pm
Damn, I love this message board.
I'm disgusted by Travis Morrison's blog post. Now that he has launched a missile, I'm obliged to launch my own. He wore shorts when he opened for Iron and Wine in Tallahassee at the Beta Bar back in 2003-ish, and a friend of mine said "I guess he went back out on tour to get some pussy." He probably whacked off alot on that tour. Travis was horrible.
So is his blog post. Anybody who professes taking advantage of a library card and steals from the good nature of such an organization is an asshole. Having a library card is a fundamental agreement in our culture, and a special gateway moment for our children. I remember getting my first library card and checking out book after book and eventually folk and blues cd after cd. I didn't photocopy the books, and I didn't copy OR tape CDs. I learned the songs on my acoustic guitar by ear and heart.
Travis is poison, and his music is written from the vantage point of a thief. It's no wonder his band failed.
Pay for your music. Buy it from the artists and/or labels when you can. This whole debacle is sickening.
Love,
Grifter
I'm disgusted by Travis Morrison's blog post. Now that he has launched a missile, I'm obliged to launch my own. He wore shorts when he opened for Iron and Wine in Tallahassee at the Beta Bar back in 2003-ish, and a friend of mine said "I guess he went back out on tour to get some pussy." He probably whacked off alot on that tour. Travis was horrible.
So is his blog post. Anybody who professes taking advantage of a library card and steals from the good nature of such an organization is an asshole. Having a library card is a fundamental agreement in our culture, and a special gateway moment for our children. I remember getting my first library card and checking out book after book and eventually folk and blues cd after cd. I didn't photocopy the books, and I didn't copy OR tape CDs. I learned the songs on my acoustic guitar by ear and heart.
Travis is poison, and his music is written from the vantage point of a thief. It's no wonder his band failed.
Pay for your music. Buy it from the artists and/or labels when you can. This whole debacle is sickening.
Love,
Grifter
Yes, Morrison's response may be interesting but it really addresses the point of being into music to the point where great EFFORT is made to acquire, hear and absorb it. I followed along and chuckled with the 'ol chap until his final sentence of taking it with a grain of salt. I did a lot of the things he talks about. But the mix tape wasn't some few moments of grabbing from a list of songs and having an instant play list. It took the same amount of time to come up with a list, maybe a bit longer because you didn't have everything in a cataloged order, but it certainly took effort to actually record each song onto tape.
And what he says about recording from the radio...yep, I did that (and mentioned a long time ago on this forum about having recorded a back and forth between Led Zeppelin and Cream, the DJ playing the songs as if part of a wrestling match ("In the red corner, Cream with Badge"). But while I enjoyed the recording I made of this back and forth it certainly didn't keep me from running out and purchasing Led Zeppelin III.
In fact, in my fervor to acquire music I actually fished out discarded cassette tapes from the trash and conducted surgery, applying scotch tape to a TDK cassette that I then recorded Black Sabbath's Paranoid onto. I played that tape for years and years and still had it until I lost my entire lp and cassette collection a little over ten years ago. But I did have the lp as well (in fact, I had two lps, the U.S. version and the U.K. version).
But the scale of things isn't even close as evidenced by the whacko argument that it isn't any loss to the artist because some thief would never have purchased a particular album or song anyway. Which means stuff is stolen just because it can be. And it is so easy, without any consequences. Why steal what you don't even want?!! Incredible.
And what he says about recording from the radio...yep, I did that (and mentioned a long time ago on this forum about having recorded a back and forth between Led Zeppelin and Cream, the DJ playing the songs as if part of a wrestling match ("In the red corner, Cream with Badge"). But while I enjoyed the recording I made of this back and forth it certainly didn't keep me from running out and purchasing Led Zeppelin III.
In fact, in my fervor to acquire music I actually fished out discarded cassette tapes from the trash and conducted surgery, applying scotch tape to a TDK cassette that I then recorded Black Sabbath's Paranoid onto. I played that tape for years and years and still had it until I lost my entire lp and cassette collection a little over ten years ago. But I did have the lp as well (in fact, I had two lps, the U.S. version and the U.K. version).
But the scale of things isn't even close as evidenced by the whacko argument that it isn't any loss to the artist because some thief would never have purchased a particular album or song anyway. Which means stuff is stolen just because it can be. And it is so easy, without any consequences. Why steal what you don't even want?!! Incredible.
I found Travis Morrison's response quite interesting:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/travis-mo ... 10557.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/travis-mo ... 10557.html
David Lowery's letter is a masterpiece. Just a few days prior to reading the salon article, a friend had let me know of spotify. My very first question back to him was "how do the artists get paid?" He didn't know. And evidently the answer. for spotify at least, is that they don't.
I read through many of the comments over at salon until I found I simply couldn't handle it anymore. The blatant justification for theft boggles the mind. To paraphrase Lowery "this is the first generation to stick it to the starving artists".
I think about how long it took me to assemble my lp collection, and then cds. And I do enjoy the convenience of being able to carry the entire collection around on a portable device. Also the surprise of hearing something when played at random. But to hear of so-called music fans who have instant, massive collections...with one nut-case insisting that he had Lady Gaga on his i-pod but it's no loss for Lady Gaga that it's stolen because he never would have purchased it if he didn't have any means to download it (ie. steal it) for free. It makes your jaw drop.
I have a son who is a musician. I've watched him pour his money into his music. Instruments, studio time, paying to have it mixed and engineered.
Well, now I'm getting depressed.
Good luck to all you musicians!
I read through many of the comments over at salon until I found I simply couldn't handle it anymore. The blatant justification for theft boggles the mind. To paraphrase Lowery "this is the first generation to stick it to the starving artists".
I think about how long it took me to assemble my lp collection, and then cds. And I do enjoy the convenience of being able to carry the entire collection around on a portable device. Also the surprise of hearing something when played at random. But to hear of so-called music fans who have instant, massive collections...with one nut-case insisting that he had Lady Gaga on his i-pod but it's no loss for Lady Gaga that it's stolen because he never would have purchased it if he didn't have any means to download it (ie. steal it) for free. It makes your jaw drop.
I have a son who is a musician. I've watched him pour his money into his music. Instruments, studio time, paying to have it mixed and engineered.
Well, now I'm getting depressed.
Good luck to all you musicians!
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Grifterwithafunnylittleha
- Posts: 1674
- Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:40 pm
Tokyo Fan: thanks for bringing this article to our attention. This is a very, very important issue for all of us.
Here is a link to David Lowery's epic post, and it is worth the read:
http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/201 ... onsidered/
Love you and buy your music directly from the label or artist (it's fun: they send you stickers, candy and hand-written notes!!!),
Grifter
Here is a link to David Lowery's epic post, and it is worth the read:
http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/201 ... onsidered/
Love you and buy your music directly from the label or artist (it's fun: they send you stickers, candy and hand-written notes!!!),
Grifter