Reality Winner

Tokyo Fan
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Post by Tokyo Fan »

amzie wrote:Oh My God. Winner absolutely proved NOTHING--do some research. A reckless statement like that from Farrar only proves his ignorance and reliance on hearsay. In the end, her info was NOT useful. This just proves to me that people like Farrar say shit without true knowledge to back it up. Stop putting him on a pedestal he doesn't deserve. You all are brainwashed.
And you seem to have a tendency to fly off the handle, eh? Who is getting their base information from Jay Farrar's song? Not me. But, as I've said, my opinion matches his (per his interview).

Her information is useful when there's a president who has utter contempt for the analysis provided by the various intelligence services.

Did she or did she not release what I pasted above?

But forget it, this isn't a dialogue anymore.

amzie
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Post by amzie »

Oh My God. Winner absolutely proved NOTHING--do some research. A reckless statement like that from Farrar only proves his ignorance and reliance on hearsay. In the end, her info was NOT useful. This just proves to me that people like Farrar say shit without true knowledge to back it up. Stop putting him on a pedestal he doesn't deserve. You all are brainwashed.

Tokyo Fan
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Post by Tokyo Fan »

amzie wrote: IMO, Reality Winner is NOT a hero, and Jay's selection of her as a song topic shows his own one-sided view of politics. Fucking spare me Reality Winner. And good luck with that pardon.
This is Jay's quote in The Boot interview: ""It's a really unjust situation where Reality Winner leaked information for the right reason," Farrar tells The Boot. "She proved that there was Russian interference in the 2016 [presidential] election."

I trust you're not disagreeing with the concluding sentence.

I have a suspicion that Reality Winner wouldn't have felt compelled to leak that classified intelligence if a certain powerful American wasn't so dismissive of its content and what he was being told by the entire national security intelligence agencies. I think exactly as Farrar does. Frankly, I can't see this as being one-sided, unless you're suggesting there's another side that actively encourages/abets/mums-the-word (!) foreign interference in our elections.

Tokyo Fan
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Post by Tokyo Fan »

I can't find anything that says Winners leak has anything to do with Trump directly. Wiki says: " The Intercept published an article describing Russian attempts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election by hacking a U.S. voting software supplier and sending spear-phishing emails to more than 100 local election officials just days before the November 8 election. The Intercept's story was based on a top-secret May 5, 2017, National Security Agency (NSA) document leaked to them anonymously."

Of course, indirectly it has a lot to do with Trump as he repeatedly casts doubt on our intelligence agencies and the information they've gathered. Winner made it clear to the public one aspect of Russia's election interference.

Re: was she authorized access? It doesn't appear so. Per wiki: "WINNER admitted intentionally identifying and printing the classified intelligence reporting at issue despite not having a "need to know," and with knowledge that the intelligence reporting was classified. "

Edit: re whistleblower per definition. Maybe there are times when a brave soul goes rouge, without benefit of whistleblower law protection. Maybe Winner waited patiently for someone with access to step up, and be the legal whistleblower. And no one was willing? (Just a thought)

Hallmark card: no argument there!
Last edited by Tokyo Fan on Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

farrarfan1
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Post by farrarfan1 »

Tokyo Fan wrote: This is more than a stretch. Trump haters are not the only ones memorialized in a song.
I agree this was a bit of a stretch, I was referring to this song in particular and kind of fumbled around with the words I chose trying to make a point. Too early in the morning and not enough coffee yet.

What I do think is a stretch is calling her a whistle blower. I did do some research on the subject, specifically pertaining to employees of the federal government, and learned quite a bit. Whistle blowers are protected from retaliation by the Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 (WPA) and the Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act of 2012. If a person wants to report suspected criminal activity by an employee of the federal government it's generally done to a supervisor, the Inspector General or the Office of Special Counsel. If Winner believed that Trump and/or members of his administration had committed a crime and wanted to file a complaint as a whistle blower she would've had been filing a report on suspected criminal activity that was already being investigated, which seems a bit redundant. Kind of like walking up to a fireman at a house fire and telling him you think the house is on fire. The other problem she would have as a whistle blower is the evidence she had to support her claim was obtained illegally, and it is hard to believe a whistle blower would have any protection under the WPA after committing a felony herself.

So, what was her goal in releasing the illegally obtained evidence to the news blog? Obviously only she knows but one can speculate. Did she believe she had uncovered evidence that the investigators didn't know about, and this was her way of getting the evidence out to the investigators? Sounds reasonable but again, the problem she had was that the evidence was obtained illegally. Was it to outrage the public? Book or movie deal (not completely unbelievable)? A guest spot on The View? We may never know what she was hoping to accomplish.

And one last thing, only she knows in her heart whether or not she hates Trump, but she did call him an orange fascist and a ginger soulless orangutan. Wouldn't make a very good Hallmark card to send to your bestie!

I'll edit this to add that I should've said the evidence may have been obtained illegally because it's possible she was authorized to access and view the material as part of her duties. It became a crime when she removed it from a government facility and sent it to a news outlet. However, if she was authorized to view the classified material and thought she had discovered something valuable then why did she not follow the proper procedure to file a report as a whistle blower, and chose instead to do what she clearly knew was illegal?

Tokyo Fan
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Post by Tokyo Fan »

amzie wrote:Tokyo Fan--maybe you listen and analyze Son Volt songs in a nitpicking fashion, HOWEVER, I wonder how closely you have read farrarfan1's posts.

Your glib responses indicate misinterpretation, e.g., your first paragraph response, and overall ignorance of the facts in this case.

FYI--a whistle blower becomes a whistle blower when their identity is known or revealed--if RW had remained anonymous, she wouldn't be a "hero," or a song title.

IMO, Reality Winner is NOT a hero, and Jay's selection of her as a song topic shows his own one-sided view of politics. Fucking spare me Reality Winner. And good luck with that pardon.
I like farrarfan1, so this is my version of treading carefully. I gather it comes off as glib to you. Sorry. My intent is restraint.

I'll have to study up on the term "whistleblower". I had googled "famous whistleblowers" yesterday, and this popped up (with Reality Winner on the list). But I see it's just a blog.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.expres ... owers/amp/

I heartily share Farrar's political opinions, so I will sing along to Reality Winner with great gusto!

amzie
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Post by amzie »

:!:
Last edited by amzie on Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Tokyo Fan
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Post by Tokyo Fan »

"The list of anonymous, faceless brave souls and patriots is endless but their actions will never be memorialized in a song, that is reserved for people whose claim to fame is their hatred of Trump. "
This is more than a stretch. Trump haters are not the only ones memorialized in a song.

Reality Winner, more than likely, wanted to be one of those anonymous, faceless and brave souls. That's part and parcel with being a whistleblower. Her problem was that her identity was discovered.

I don't even know whether Winner hates Trump. From what I've read, she appears to be hoping for a pardon from him. And Trump? His tweet seems to indicate he's sympathetic, though I have no idea why he put quotation marks around the word "classified". (Is he suggesting it wasn't classified? Who knows.)

farrarfan1
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Post by farrarfan1 »

I am not "satisfied" that she is in prison because that would require some effort on my part to care one way or the other about her, which I don't. At all. There are far too many genuine brave souls and patriots out here doing remarkable things every day that are never going to have a song written about them or be worshiped as a hero. I'm talking about ordinary, regular Joe Citizens who do extraordinary things like run into their neighbors burning house to save them or jump into a river to save a child swept away in floodwater. Volunteers who go out in blizzards to deliver food to elderly shut ins and make sure they're safe, or go into the worst inner city neighborhoods to try and help kids who have no one else. People go into dangerous and most impoverished countries on the planet to bring fresh water or build houses. Folks who donate kidneys to save a total strangers life. The list of anonymous, faceless brave souls and patriots is endless but their actions will never be memorialized in a song, that is reserved for people whose claim to fame is their hatred of Trump.

Martin Luther King and the other civil rights activists of that era were brave souls who willingly faced imprisonment, beatings and even death every single day during their struggles to right a wrong. They didn't break federal law and then hide in the shadows hoping desperately to maintain their anonymity and never be identified. Her actions accomplished nothing and did not positively affect anyone else's life in any way, except making money for her attorneys. But she's a hero.

unchartedthickets
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Post by unchartedthickets »

megaballs wrote:This album is sweet as spring with the windows rolled down.
Forget the politics, useless and divisive.

Let’s hope Jay makes it down to SoCal and doesn’t
make us drive to Santa Barbara or Pioneertown again!

Help a brother out[/

Can’t wait for Columbia next month. The Dogwoods and Red buds will signal Missouri’s under canopy firework display and this new album will play.

unchartedthickets
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Post by unchartedthickets »

farrarfan1 wrote:Foreign interference in elections is not something that was suddenly invented in 2016 by Russia, countries have been conducting overt and covert operations for decades in order to influence the outcome of election. That, of course, includes the U.S. One study that is cited in a couple different articles says that between 1946 and 2000 the United States intervened in 81 foreign elections and Russia in 36. There are numerous articles online that outline our actions as well as the other countries in various elections.

This is simply a part of international politics that everyone in the CIA, FBI, Congress and presidents have been aware of, and utilized, for decades. It is a valuable tool that all of the major countries have used in the past, and will use again in the future, to attempt to influence elections in their favor. It is a fact of life, just like spying. We do it, they do it and puffing up our chest with righteous indignation isn't going to change a thing.

Reality Winner is not a brave soul. MLK was a brave soul, the young man in Tiananmen Square was a brave soul. They were willing to sacrifice everything for the cause the believed in. Instead of openly sending the document to every major news station and newspaper and demand they release it to the public she chose to anonymously send it to an obscure online blog and then did everything possible to remain hidden and unidentified. Then, after being convicted she is now asking the president, who she admittedly hates, of the country she admittedly hates, to pardon her and make it all go away.

At least she did have the courage to apologize for her actions and admit it was wrong, which it was.
More law has been broken by the Trump team. Well, It sounds like you’re satisfied with putting a real patriot in prison and the friends of Russia in office.

Tokyo Fan
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Post by Tokyo Fan »

Talking Points Memo put up a chart (and I saved it, but didn't note the date!) of Length of Major Presidential Investigations by Number of Days:
Whitewater: 2,982
Iran/Contra: 2,420
Plane: 1,163
Watergate: 784

This thing's still early days!

I don't think the investigation needs to be about the election. If there's nothing to see, there doesn't need to be any obstruction (which, as we all know, was one of the three pillars of Nixon's downfall).

Theoretically, 420 congressional representatives are all on the same page...and want the report (when completed) released to the public.

farrarfan1
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Post by farrarfan1 »

With all of the posturing and grandstanding done by both sides one would be wise to take most of what is released to the public with a huge grain of salt. Practically everything done and said by both parties during this investigation is to help win the next election, plain and simple. It's not some noble quest to find the truth, it's to win. I think it's safe to say that everything done by politicians on both sides is done to win the next election. Hard-line members of each party take what their side says as gospel without doing even a little research or critical thinking on their own to see if what's being said is logical and makes sense.

This investigation is entering its third year and so far I don't believe any credible evidence has been uncovered that proves Trump colluded with Russia in order to win the election. So, why is that? Is it because it didn't happen and there is no evidence? Is it because the Republicans are withholding or covering up incriminating evidence? Is it because the investigators haven't looked in the right place or just didn't recognize it? Who knows, but whatever each side says the other will have a counter argument and the huffing and puffing and finger pointing and blustering will go on and on and on. People should question what each side says instead of just blindly believing they're being told the truth. Question, question, question everything.

If Russia, China or any other large country feared repercussions for interfering with our elections do you think they would admit it? Would they want to look like they're afraid of us on the world stage? They're not going to show any kind of weakness that their enemies can see and possibly exploit. They will continue to attempt to influence elections and so will we.

Tokyo Fan
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Post by Tokyo Fan »

farrarfan1 wrote:Foreign interference in elections is not something that was suddenly invented in 2016 by Russia, countries have been conducting overt and covert operations for decades in order to influence the outcome of election. That, of course, includes the U.S. One study that is cited in a couple different articles says that between 1946 and 2000 the United States intervened in 81 foreign elections and Russia in 36. There are numerous articles online that outline our actions as well as the other countries in various elections.

This is simply a part of international politics that everyone in the CIA, FBI, Congress and presidents have been aware of, and utilized, for decades. It is a valuable tool that all of the major countries have used in the past, and will use again in the future, to attempt to influence elections in their favor. It is a fact of life, just like spying. We do it, they do it and puffing up our chest with righteous indignation isn't going to change a thing.
.
We do/they do, yep, that is true. Normally, though, there are consequences. And, as the US is still The Power on the global stage, theoretically nations should be a tad nervous about interfering, wondering what the consequences might be. It's pretty damn abnormal to have a major party possibly (and hopefully we'll find out one way or the other) assisting in the interference. And it's unbelievable that one party is doing their best to either turn a blind eye or actively obstruct.

amzie
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Post by amzie »

Forget the politics? Are you serious? Farrar has made it quite clear that this is in large part a political album.

So just ignore the lyrics or sing along mindlessly.

farrarfan1 is absolutely right. Best to look at the facts and all sides before claiming you know the truth, or choosing to ignore it as too divisive. What farrarfan1 says about Reality Winner is factually correct, and I agree with his opinion. Farrar doesn't always know what he's talking about, maybe because he is blinded by his own views and is unable to think objectively or adequately research his topics.

farrarfan1 is the only voice of reason on this forum.

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